Is it possible to connect kitchen appliances in one line or to divide into groups?
In some houses, all wiring is generally kept on the same line and it is protected by traffic jams on the meter.
The listed consumers, in principle, can be connected to one line, but it is worth remembering the maximum load, which is determined by the cross-sectional area of the cable cores and the rating of the circuit breaker, both input and on this particular line. This means that if you connect all of these devices to one line, then when you turn on the microwave and electric kettle, the machine can work at the same time (depending on which it has the rated breaking current).
So that when you turn on several powerful devices you do not turn off the lights in the whole house and organize separate lines, outlet groups and more.
We addressed this issue in an article. https://our.electricianexp.com/en/kak-razdelit-elektroprovodku-na-gruppy.html, we recommend that you familiarize yourself with it.
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Hello Alexey.
We have already corresponded by e-mail, I sent you a copy of the letter - Now I am writing here on the site.
I'm confused already.
Made up such a scheme. I wanted to know how correct it is, can I use it when installing wiring in a house in the village - and is it possible to somehow simplify (reduce the cost) of this scheme?
The head is already spinning from Difov, RCD, AV ... ... more precisely what parameters of RCD and Automatic (as well as C or B) to choose (cable cross-section I indicated on the diagram). True, I want to clarify which section to choose from
1) AB-7 to the outlet -
2) On the cable from the meter to the shields?
3) From shields to RCDs?
I also wrote to you that the house is without grounding, that power to the house comes from the line (from the pole) directly to the house immediately to the meter.
Hoping to get your help.
thank
Hello! In your diagram I do not see the opening automaton of the general, and the opening automaton in each of the shields. They must be, thus protecting the entire chain after it, incl. RCD, SOCKETS AND LIGHTING!
RCD choose with a tripping current (leakage current, it is a differential current, it is Id) 30-50mA with a rated current more than on the machine. That is, if the machine is 16A, set the RCD to 25A (it is possible to 16, but I think it is better with a margin), if the machine is introductory at 25, then the UzO at 30A is not necessary for RCD lighting.
In rooms where it will be humid, this is, for example, a circuit with a pump and a heating element - it is better to take a more sensitive circuit, with a leakage current of 10 mA.
The machine for sockets is also 16A, and for lighting - 6-10A is enough with your head!
Cables for outlets with your load should, in principle, be 2.5 square meters. mmAs for the "section from the shield to the ouzo," and you have an RCD, is it not in the shield? In the shield, make a connection with a PV1 wire with a cross section of 2.5 square mm.
Hello. I read your answer, on the basis of which I corrected my little scheme. But I would ask you to check all the parameters of the RCD and AB, which I entered in the circuit. Also pzhl. pay attention and, if necessary, adjust to the parameters (UZO-3 - AB-7) HOSBLOCK SHIELD where power tools will be connected to the outlet until welding
As I already wrote, my head is already spinning, and today I came across in the internet a circuit where the machines are first, and after them the RCD, did not pay attention to that circuit, and yet ... .. but I decided more than this site do not go anywhere so that you don’t powder your brains ... As I already wrote in the correspondence, I am not good at these RCDs and other protective devices, I would be able to help with this, and I will collect the wiring according to the scheme.
1. "In your diagram I do not see the opening automaton of the general, and the opening automaton in each of the shields."
Answer - But there is no general automatic machine, I kind of wrote that 220 V power is supplied from the line through the air to the house - then to the house immediately to the meter, and after the meter to the machine, that's all the wiring. 🙁 But at the expense of opening machines in the shields, here again I need your help .... what should I put?
2. "As for the" section from the shield to the ouzo, "and you have an RCD, is it not in the shield?"
The answer is a typo here, on the diagram I made them out for clarity.
Today an idea came to my mind, I don’t know, maybe from your point of view it’s also stupid, but in my opinion it takes place BE. But the idea is ... .. And what if I buy a 4-core cable and use one pair for example (if you rely on my scheme) of a room-bedroom outlet, and the other a couple of room outlets, or is it still impossible to do this? - I would like pensioners to somehow save money for us (I mean my relatives). By the way, regarding the circuit, it cannot be cheapened in any way, we will not save protective devices at companies (ABB - LEGRAND - SCHNEIDER). Maybe there is some option reliable but economical?
"After the counter, immediately to the machine," and from the machine to the 2 shields? The maximum rating of the machine on the shield, and even more common on the input, must not exceed the amount of allocated power ... i.e. 16A - 3.5 kW, 25A - 5.5 kW, etc.
Welding welding is different! Maybe this is the inverter that hangs on the belt for 1.5-2 kW, or maybe it's a huge ancient transformer, right? Most household welding inverters do not exceed 5 kW in power, and this is MAXIMUM power. (of course there are models of 7 kW and more). This means that for them 16-25A machine is enough. Again, rely on the allocated power prescribed in the power supply agreement.
I mixed up the house diagram, loaded the old one without the parameters of the machines, this SCHEMA
Yes, normal ratings, in principle. Is it that RCD1, 2, 3, and 4 are 25A each, and in RCD5 they were sealed that they wrote 16A? If you want to simplify, reduce the number of groups. But lay the wiring so that, in one machine, 2 groups of combining both outlets and light, and then, if possible, buy the machines and divide the groups. But think about how important it is for you to divide the sockets into so many groups? Of course, this is good and reliable ... But without introductory machines, all of the above fades.
That is, for example, the light in the house is connected to 1 machine, not 2, but we lay the wires as indicated in this diagram. This is a way out of the situation. But take care in advance of the shield of the right size, then just insert 1 module and reconnect 1 wire.
You can remove the RCD 1 in the house and use the common. As if they lived without them at all, but it’s safer with them. But your scheme, I think, is very good to reduce it.
Well, by this analogy, you can transform the circuit
Thank.
Again, based on your comments, I’ll correct the scheme, and to you ………. For the exam 😉
Good?
After your final “Welcome”, I’ll start choosing protective devices (there’s so much choice in stores, there’s also confusion, and with this scheme, how many modules do you need to take a shield, and in general MODULE is ??? - the number of all protective devices or ....
Thanks again.
And yet, I do not remember saying or not, there is NO EARTH in the house, is this permissible?
INTRODUCTION AUTOMATIC MACHINE - is it the same as in the diagram (AB-1 - AB-11) only bipolar?
Tell me, in general, how to properly place the protection devices in the shield.
a - From top to bottom> 1-Input automatic device> 2-RCD> 3-AB (circuit breakers)
b - From left to right> 1-Input circuit breaker> 2-RCD> 3-AB (circuit breakers)
or does it depend on the structure of the shield?
Addition to the choice of an automaton - in the sense of INTRODUCTIVE AUTOMATIC MACHINE which one to choose
And what kind of shield to pay attention to, more attractive - inside the house will stand
Sorry for the bunch of questions.
Hello again.
I post the final outline in my opinion, with some clarifications from you, they are highlighted in red.
1. "Again, rely on the allocated power prescribed in the power supply agreement." - I’ll only recognize the allocated power most likely in the summer, why I’ll start to “dance” - but for now I’ve taken the opening automaton of my apartment as an example
2. My question was left unanswered. 😉 — Today an idea came to my mind, I don’t know, maybe from your point of view it’s also stupid, but in my opinion it takes place BE. But the idea is ... .. And what if I buy a 4-core cable and use one pair for example (if you rely on my scheme) of a room-bedroom outlet, and the other a couple of room outlets, or is it still impossible to do this? - I would like pensioners to somehow save money for us (I mean my relatives).
Module - refers to any device on a din-rail (this is a way of mounting machines in modern electrical panels), the width of which is 18mm. In simple language - 1 pole circuit breaker is 1 module, and bipolar - takes 2 modules.
You need to place it so that it is convenient to service in which case and reduce the length of the wires, their bends and intersections. Both options are logical, not bad. Yes, rather lean on the shield and act according to circumstances!
By an introductory machine is meant the first machine that turns off everything, i.e. it is either after the counter or at the input to the shield, depending on the design of the panels and in general the distribution scheme of the electrical installation lines. 1 or bipolar - does not matter. By current, he must protect the entire line from its beginning to the end. Yes, as you drew in the diagram. Where will it be located? In a home electrical panel? I would add an introductory (general) machine at the hozblok so that it would be convenient to turn off everything all at once.
According to the current, you yourself said that as you know, put this on! And now you have designed the shield, and in the end it will turn out to be only 16A, and you simply will not physically connect such a load, although such an electrical panel will not be superfluous in this case either - it will protect every line ...
As for the 4-core cable - so why not do this? You will still lead him to some kind of box, from which you will separate into 2 cables 2 cores for each group of rooms.
As for the simpler way, but to be at least somehow reliable, I told you, let's say you connect all sockets in the house except the bathroom and the kitchen to one machine, the bath with the kitchen (are they nearby, I suppose right?) To the second AB. 2 RCDs - one per AB. Light is all under 1 AB.
In the hozblok by the same principle - especially powerful or important devices on a separate line with a gun. You should not strive to make not a shield, but a piano.
Switchboard “so as not to be scary”, choose a plastic one with a darkened transparent door for the house. They look good enough. Model type Viko 90912024 (for example).
When choosing machines, I’m confused, don’t tell which one can be taken from ABB or IEK (?) (I choose on Leroy Merlin) - and what do you say if all protective devices are purchased by IEK. I looked at my guard in my porch - everything was assembled from IEK
IEK makes good and fairly common wiring products and protective automation. ABB - is considered "better", but the likelihood of buying fakes is "more." Choose based on your budget, but try to maximize the amount your inner toad allows.
Hello.
He contacted the brother-in-law in the village, told him to find out the allocated power prescribed in the electricity supply agreement.
So while I slow down, there’s time before the summer ...
The only question, again about introductory machines. I wanted to install it in the dashboard of the house and from there both dashboards power up. You can not do it this way? - Or is it better to put an introductory automaton into each shield from the counter?
When I find out about the allocated power about the house, will it be possible to contact you again?
Thank you for your help!
Yes, I forgot to say that all the equipment that is indicated in the diagram, and is currently working, only once this summer, cut down the machine that goes to the heater, by our mistake, they turned it on - but they did not pour water into the barrel 😉
And so for clarity, I will send pictures of food at home in the village.
2 photos
3 photos
4 photos
In the village, such wiring
through 1 automatic machine C 25 - phase
through 2 automatic C 25 - zero
and home wiring with them 🙁
3 electric heaters C 16 connected to a heating element (barrel - summer shower) for 2 kW (zero taken by a jumper from 2 automatic machines)
Here is such a Kursk region 😉
Hello.
Made up the final (in my opinion) scheme. I am sending for verification.
There are a few questions left to clarify.
1. How to choose the cable section for the "Earth" from the circuit to the ground bus in the shields?
2. Will there be enough cable cross-section 2.5 mm2 from the shield to the input machines?
3. Is it correct, did I run the ground cable on the circuit, or put the ground bus after each RCD?
Thank!
To 1 question
PUE 1.7.117.
"The grounding conductor connecting the earthing switch of the working (functional) grounding to the main grounding bus in electrical installations with voltage up to 1 kV must have a cross section of at least: copper - 10 mm2, aluminum - 16 mm2, steel - 75 mm2."
In this case, table 1.7.5 should be taken into account. of the same section of the PUE, where it is said that if the cross-section of the phase wire is less than 16 squares (your case, most likely), then the cross-section of the grounding wire should be equal to the cross-section of the phase.
2 question:
I’m confused in your guards, to be honest. From the metering board (where's the brush)? In any case, the cable cross-section is selected in accordance with the load, and the machine is already selected for the cable cross-section. Those. 2.5 kv cable mm is protected by an automatic machine in 16A, the limit is in 25A (but this is already "too much").
3 question:
I did not understand why the ground bus after each RCD?
If you will ground the ground exactly as shown in the diagram, then be aware of the requirements of the PUE that the PE conductor must (ground) be inextricable. Those. from the bus to each outlet and to each device in a separate line, looping of protective conductors is prohibited.
PUE 1.7.144:
"The connection of each open conductive part of the electrical installation to the zero protective or protective grounding conductor shall be carried out using a separate branch. Serial connection of open conductive parts to the protective conductor is not allowed."
P.S.
What distance from the hozblok to the house and to the counter? If the host unit is at a great distance, then the machine should be at the beginning of the line, that is, from the other side where the power came from.
"2 question: -I'm confused in your shields, to be honest. From the metering board (where is the brush)? In any case, the cable cross-section is selected in accordance with the load, and the machine is already selected for the cable cross-section. That is, the cable is 2.5 square meters. mm is protected by an automatic machine in 16A, the limit is in 25A (but this is already "too much"). "
HERE I MISTAKED, I WANTED TO SAY FINALLY THE SAME FROM THE COUNTER TO THE INTRODUCTION AUTOMATIC MACHINES.
From home to the household block 15 meters no more ...
Indicated the value of AB 2 (kitchen outlets) and AB10 (summer kitchen outlets) C25 or still leave C16 (simultaneous connection of microwave and kettle is possible)
It seems to figure it out.
Sorry for the stupidity.
Give WELCOME to this circuit?
Thanks a lot!!!
I didn’t understand, like sending an answer - for some reason it was not published.
1. The distance from the household. block to the house 15-20 meters no more
I’m already confused in my questions, sorry ...
Let's do it in a new and last time ...
A shield for the house - 3 rooms and a kitchen of the house will be connected to it.
A guard for households. block - the summer kitchen, pantry and household will be connected to it. block.
Pay attention to the text in the diagram that is highlighted in red, whether I chose the cable section correctly.
And also on the parameters of protective devices (RCD - AV)
With this scheme, is it possible to connect the microwave + El. Simultaneously to the kitchen outlet AB1 (or to the outlet of the summer kitchen AB10)? kettle ???
Thank.
Sorry for the stupidity. I would like to understand and disassemble everything, so that later I can collect everything with a calm soul ...
I believe that everything is fine, but I repeat once again - SOCKETS ARE DESIGNED FOR 16A, so put the machine up to 16A (I mean AB-2).
You can connect the microwave and kettle at the same time, unless of course the machine breaks out, well, that is, look at the load, and it is unlikely that you will urgently need to turn everything on at once ....
Thank you very much!
The question is closed.
GOOD TO ALL OF YOU !!!
Hello.
I read the articles on your site, and found on the page (or here is the diagram from this page)
https://our.electricianexp.com/en/6-vazhnyx-kriteriev-vybora-avtomaticheskogo-vyklyuchatelya.html ;
How to understand this, if in your answer you wrote: "I think that everything is fine, I’ll just repeat it again - SOCKETS ARE DESIGNED FOR 16A, so put the machine up to 16A (I mean AB-2).
And on the diagram for the same washing machine there is a 25A automatic machine (and not only on the washing machine)
Explain, please.
Hello! the circuit is outdated and not drawn by me, apparently it was given as an example. We try to update the site materials in order to correct defects, update information and introduce new knowledge and experience ..
As if some electricians put on sockets and 25A machines, arguing that they lived in 2.5 square meters. mm withstand current up to 25A. Yes it is. but in the end, during operation, several extension cords can be inserted into the outlet and load it on these same 25A. As a result, we get molten plugs and contacts and so on. Simple go to the outlet closest to you and see what rated current is indicated on it!
By the way, in front of the picture itself is written “sockets - 16A” ... And you also need to remember that many devices can be connected directly - through the terminal block, like electric stoves, for example.
Thanks for pointing out the error.
Thank you
Now everything is clear, but THANKS to you, MUCH THANKS!
Hello.
But I’m all studying your site ...
I went to the forum in this topic: "Replacing the wiring. Please check !!!"
https://our.electricianexp.com/en/
Where I see the answer, which says: "If the input circuit breaker is 40 A, then the cross-section of a copper wire of 4 sq. Mm will be small, at least 6 sq. Mm is necessary."
In my scheme, the situation is similar, but you approved my version with a cross section of 4 mm
How to be
Again the question arose which section to choose from the input machines to RCDs, from RCDs to AV-1 ... ..AV12 ???
Let’s not to be confused, I repeat as it should be:
1. Automatic machines protect the line from the counter to the shields.
2. An introductory general automaton will not hurt in the shields, but it is not so necessary with your scheme.
3. The wire in the shields, I just noticed - from the counter, the wiring in the machines should withstand the current. Yes, their length is small, and one can argue about resistance. But the rating of the 40A machine is a large current. It is better to breed 4 square. mm You just need a couple of meters ...
Maybe I advised above 2.5 square meters.mm - it means a mistake or misunderstood each other.
4. cable with 4-core conductors mm It holds up to 40 A, but 6 square meters. mm - it will be a good supply. If you have the financial ability - buy 6 square meters. mm It will be better this way. If not, then the need for this acquisition, see how much you really load all the lines. If the lines on 40A will never be loaded, then the machines do not need to be put on such a current. To avoid false alarms, put machines with the time-current characteristic "D", that is, they write "D40" on them.
5. Nevertheless, you will have an automatic machine up to the counter. Or already worth it. There is such a point in PUE 7.1.64. "To safely replace the meter directly connected to the network, a switching device must be provided in front of each meter to relieve voltage from all phases connected to the meter. The disconnecting apparatus for relieving voltage from the metering meters located in the apartments should be located outside the apartment."
And this machine concurrently will limit power. So then you have 2 automatic machines of 40A - 80A maximum load on the input! And judging by the communication, these are your desires and they are justified and very logical, but in reality, when installing these panels, you can find that 2 thin aluminum wires were thrown at the house and they can hardly withstand 16A. Therefore, you need to design based on a real object.
By the way, it may be necessary, the meter is at 60A
Thanks for the help, by the way Alexey, with HOLIDAY, ALL GOOD!
You are welcome! Thank! Happy holiday too! Good luck in your work and all your endeavors!